Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: My guest on today's show almost needs no introduction. Chef Katie Button has an incredible resume. She worked with Jose Andres for years, was in New York City working for Jean Georges, spent time at Oboli over in Spain. She's a James Beard Award winner and has a very untraditional trajectory and is growing her restaurant and her restaurant brands into a company that is also very non traditional. And I'll explain what we mean over the course of the interview today. Tons of insights. She is one of the most open, transparent, insightful people I've ever had on this show. I cannot wait for you to listen to this interview with Chef Katie Button. Don't go anywhere.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: There's an old saying that goes something like this.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: You'll only find three kinds of people in the world.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: Those who see, those who will never.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: See, and those who can see when shown. This is Restaurant Strategy, a podcast with answers for anyone who's looking.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Foreign.
Hey, everyone, thanks for tuning in. My name is Chip Close.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: I am your host here of Restaurant Strategy Podcast. We put out two episodes every single week. Monday's focus on operations, Thursday's focus on marketing. Because there are two sides of any successful restaurant business, the operations are interested in managing the profitability. And I believe that marketing has to do with growth. How do we get more people in the front door? How do we increase the frequency of visits? In case you don't know me, I wrote a book. It's called the Restaurant Marketing Mindset. I give talks all over the country. I'm the founder of the P3 mastermind. It's a group coaching program specifically geared towards independent restaurant owners to help them increase the profitability of their restaurants. I also have a membership site.
[00:01:53] Speaker B: This has been going on for about.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Two and a half years.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: And I'm just talking about in a.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: More deliberate way now because I know how. I know how productive and constructive it can be. It's $97 a month, but you guys can get access to it free for a month. Here's the deal. You go in there, there are dozens and dozens of online videos. There's a resource bundle with templates, spreadsheets, workbooks, ebooks, all of that. We put out these playbooks. So there are a bunch of, like, mini courses, mini videos, literally meant to teach. One little idea, one snippet, one tactic, one script. You watch them, you teach them to your staff. I know this program. This site works. It's called Restaurant Foundations. You get it free for the first month and then at the end, you cancel. You cancel whenever you want. Obviously, I Hope you stick around because we do Ask Me Anything sessions every month where you get to log on to zoom and ask me whatever you.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Want to ask me.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: We do masterclasses. There's a lot of great reasons to be a part of the community, but there's no other better reason than right now. Through the end of the year, we're offering a free month just for you to come in and check it out. You're going to find that link in the show notes.
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[00:03:02] Speaker B: You don't know?
[00:03:03] Speaker A: With Margin Edge you could know instantly. Margin Edge is a complete restaurant management software that I like to recommend to all of the P3 members, all the clients I work with.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Why?
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Because it helps them improve profitability. With Margin Edge you just get to snap pictures of your invoices as they come in and you get real time data in every area of your business.
You can see play costs in real time. You get daily PNLs. Your inventory count sheets are automatically updated.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: It saves you a ton of time.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: And lets you make informed decisions. So I got a client P3 member, gather brewing down outside of San Antonio. They started using Margin Edge a month after they joined my program and within one month of them bringing on Margin Edge their food costs went from 38% to 28%. It was incredible savings. That's 10 points that dropped straight to the bottom line. There's a reason I recommend Margin Edge to so many of the P3 members. It's because I know it works. If you're interested in learning more or you want to see how Gather brewing went from 38% to 28% food costs, head over to marginedge.com chip there's an incredible video there that talks about their story, talks about their journey with the platform. Again, Marginedge.com chip see a really great.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: See a really great story about the folks at Gather Brewing.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: Go do that now. Of course that link is in the show notes now. As I said at the top, my guest on today's show is Chef Katie Button. She almost needs no introduction, but she is a James Beard Award winner, a five time nominee. She she has worked all over the world with some of the the most incredible chefs out there. Ferran Adria, Jose Andres, Shawn George. She has worked at the very highest levels, El Bully in Spain. Back when that was in full operation, she was there working both front of house and back of house. She now runs an empire of restaurants and beyond. We're going to get into that over.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: The course of this conversation.
[00:05:01] Speaker A: But without any further ado, let's welcome Katie to the show. It's great to have you.
[00:05:05] Speaker C: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: So, chef, but not always a chef. So for context here for the listeners, let's go all the way back. We won't spend a lot of time in ancient history, but go all the way back and tell me how you came to this, from what you were going to do with your life to what you ended up doing with your life.
[00:05:24] Speaker C: My path is definitely unconventional. I have a master's degree in biomedical engineering.
I basically went to school thinking I was pretty good at math and science, even though. And was thinking, you know, oh, I needed to do the quote, unquote, successful career. And engineering was one of those that was like, listed approved success careers. So I went to Cornell University and studied biochemical and molecular engineering. And it was, I have a bachelor of science. And then when I graduated, I was lost.
I had no idea what I wanted to do. I don't even think I knew what a biomolecular engineer even did. And I mean, I guess I did, but not really.
So instead of finding something else, I thought, well, if I keep studying, then eventually I'll be so overqualified, someone will have to hire me or I'll figure it out. So I went to Paris and got my master's degree in biomedical engineering in Paris. And I was miserable in my career, my studies, the entire time. And it took, looking back on those years and the studies that I had, feeling like it actually took me almost starting a PhD program in neuroscience, still on the path of continuing to study until somebody hired me or I was a professor for the rest of my life. So it was about. Was about to start a PhD in neuroscience when I think it dawned on me that starting that was like making the decision of the rest of my life. And I wasn't happy and wasn't enjoying it. So I dropped out of the program before it started.
Burned the bridge, Told my parents after I burned the bridge, which was the right move at that time. No, they have been very supportive.
And, you know, I immediately started working in restaurants. And it's kind of funny how that happened. I mean, when I, when I dropped out, I didn't know that I wanted to be a chef. I didn't know I would own my own restaurant. It's not like I had some clear vision or dream. I just knew that I wasn't enjoying what I was doing. And when I was looking back at the moments of my life that Gave me joy. They were all centered around food.
I grew up in a house where my mom ran a catering business professionally out of our home. And so my house growing up was just full of incredible smells and tastes and seeing her busy working and cooking. And when I was doing my master's degree in Paris, I was so inspired by food, and I loved to cook that I taught myself how to make puff pastry on the floor of my apartment because I didn't have enough counter space, and I, like, made this whole poisson crout. And, you know, so it was like those moments when I was looking back at the moments, the time and the effort in my time outside of what I was studying and how it was all being channeled into cooking and food, that it really dawned on me that I, you know, there was something to that.
[00:08:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:40] Speaker C: And, I mean, my path is just that fate brought me to one of Jose Andres restaurants. I mean, really, I was in D.C. that's where my Ph.D. was supposed to happen at the NIH in Bethesda. And so I'd already signed a lease and needed to pay for this apartment that I had. And I went around to the best restaurants in D.C. with this resume that shouted, Ph.D. dropout. Zero restaurant experience. You know, And I was like, please hire me. And the only person who would give me a chance was the general manager at Cafe Atlantico Minibar at the time.
And the reason was because they gave me a quiz.
So when I walked in, I handed them this resume that had no experience, and then they handed me a quiz that was full of questions about food knowledge. It was like, name five types of mushrooms or grape varietals or what does 86 mean? And, you know, the restaurant terminology. I did not know what 86 meant at that time. I mean, I never worked in a restaurant, so I failed those questions. But the food questions and just service and hospitality and those kinds of things, I mean, I really. I, like, aced them. You know, I was, like, naming more mushrooms than they asked for. And.
And that moment really, like, just sent me down this path that I. It, like, I got the bug. I immediately fell in love working in restaurants. The industry, the pace, the energy, and how it made people feel. And so, yeah, I want to pause.
[00:10:17] Speaker B: Here, because you touched upon something important to me that I think comes up over and over and over again when I have these conversations, which is that so many of us, myself included, took the side door or the back door into this industry. And so. And even you yourself just said, you know, looking back on it, looking back on it. And there's so much of my life that I look back on, and they say, right, you can't connect the dots moving forward. You can only connect the dots looking backwards.
And when I look at certain pivots and turns that I made in my life, it's really easy to look backward and see how it all led me here.
But a lot of it was hard and painful, and I talk about that a lot on this show. We're 330some episodes in, and I'm sort of like an open book. I wear my heart on my sleeve.
Take me back to that moment. Because you're in D.C.
obviously, you grew up around food and hospitality through your mother and all that. I get that. But I have to imagine you went to get a job at restaurants because there's a low barrier of entry, and you're like. I mean, you sort of set it yourself, right? Like, I have to pay my rent. I have to support myself. And the lead time for getting a job in most other fields is weeks or months. And in restaurants, you can interview, and they're like, here, put on an apron. You'll start tonight.
Take me back to that moment. Because you make it sound really easy. And my guess is it wasn't as easy as you're leading me to believe at this moment.
[00:11:48] Speaker C: Yes, you are exactly correct. I mean, you know, I was in the middle of an identity crisis. You know, I had. I had dropped out of this PhD program. I. You know, the. The only job that I knew I could get in easy because I didn't have culinary experience was serving. So those were the jobs I was applying for. And I was like, you know, I can learn how to serve, I think, and figure it out. And because you're right, it is like a lower barrier entry job. You have to have some skills and abilities. But for the most part, it's a learning on the job type industry.
So it was really stressful, mainly because it took a while. I mean, I put my resume out to lots of places, and nobody was calling me back. I mean, they was ending up the garbage. And I couldn't believe it.
When I got the job at Cafe Atlantico minibar, I was, like, shocked. First of all, I couldn't believe that they gave me something besides a quick glance at my resume before talking to me more. That moment, I mean, is the piece that separated their hiring process from everybody else because they were able to look for passion instead of skills. I mean, we're all told to put passion on our resumes, but it's really hard, you know, because people are also just looking for skills, you know, and what that experience is and where you worked and in what position. And so, yeah, it was, it was very stressful and I can't even believe that it worked out.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: Ultimately. The best organizations, I mean, Danny Meyer wrote about this how many years ago? The 51 percenters, right? So the best organizations know that they're really good at teaching skills, but you can't teach someone to want to help someone. You can't teach someone to be nice and warm even when you've had a bad day. There are certain people who just know that I'm at work and I have to make these.
My guests have a great experience. And, you know, Danny wrote about it in his book and he says, you know, I can't teach people to want to care.
So I find people who care and are really good at caring. And then I can teach them how to serve from the left, clear from the right. I can teach them all about grape varietals. I can teach them all about the six different kinds of mushrooms you're going to need to know for this dish.
Talk to me.
So, okay, so you get started with Jose Andres with his group in front of house.
At what point did you switch to Back a House?
[00:14:20] Speaker C: I mean, I was. The entire time I was like researching culinary schools. I mean, I was thinking I got to move into the back on the. I love cooking too much and I have to figure out my transition in it. It took a little bit of time. I mean, I was really inspired because Minibar at that time, which still exists, was just like a 10 seat bar within cafe Atlantico, which is a restaurant that doesn't exist anymore.
[00:14:47] Speaker B: And.
[00:14:47] Speaker C: But that was how Minibar began. And at Minibar, they were doing incredible things. I mean, they were following in the path of El Bui and molecular gastronomy and really pushing the boundaries of what we think of as food and how food is presented and merging food and science. And so I'm watching them using all of the tools that I had when I did my master's degree and, you know, liquid nitrogen. I'm like looking at that and I'm like, wow, I'm really comfortable in that. You know, like they're having to learn this, right? I'm watching these chefs and, you know, some of the chefs from El Bulli came over to kind of consult. And so I got to learn about that whole world and the type of cuisine. And I remember feeling like, oh, I'm comfortable in that I have skills in that area, it's not related.
Wasn't tied to food at the time, but. But I can use a gram scale perfectly and, you know, and, like, I can calibrate things and liquid nitrogen and whatever I need to do.
So I really started getting excited about that experience, and I would sometimes on my days off, like, help out in the kitchen and learn a little bit. And then I had the opportunity. So shortly after, I met my business partner, Felix Mana, who came over to help consult in front of house service and in Jose's group.
And he was Chef Durant, so a front of house manager at El Bulli at the time, you know, and he told me he was like, you have to come and work at this restaurant in Spain at El Bulli. And I was like, best restaurant in the world, because that wasn't the time.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: But at this point, you had already then sort of switched back to back of the house, or you were just moonlighting. No, in the back.
[00:16:37] Speaker C: I was just moonlighting in the back of the house. So I went to El Bulli two seasons. The first season, I was a server, so I'm the only American who worked in both the front of the house and the back of the house at El Bulli, which is kind of cool.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: To say the least.
[00:16:55] Speaker C: And so I went over there first to serve, and I learned so much. I mean, just first of all, being exposed to Spain, Spanish food culture, like, in the actual place in the country, and then to be exposed to that level of food and service at one of the best restaurants in the world, and, you know, seeing that science meets food coming out of the kitchen. And I was super passionate about it. And I made it very clear to everyone working there, Albert Adria, who was running the pastry kitchen, that I wanted an Ferran, that I wanted to be in the kitchen. I mean, I just told him, I was like, I want to be in the kitchen.
And they told me that I needed to go get some cooking experience, which made a lot of sense. But really also having worked in the front of the house, I remember there was this moment when I knew the window for me to come back or the door for me to come back and work in the kitchen was open. And it was this moment that I'm up at the pass in the snacks kind of pastry area, and I'm about to grab this elaborate soup dish, ne nu ferrais, which is, like, based on lily petals. And there was a lot of garnishes and different layers to this dish. And one of the things was amaranth. And I Went up there and they're sending out. The chef who's running the pass is sending the dishes out and tells me to take them to a certain table. And I grab it and I look and I notice that the little grains of amaranth are missing. And so I say something, and Albert Adria overhears it, and he says, okay, you can come back.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: It's an attention to detail that most people don't have. I always joke around that I was basically 25 years in the industry, and I just, like, I'm good. I mean, living in the city for 20 years, you know, 25. Like, I've got periphery. Like, I'm really good at noticing, you know, like, you can't go to the restaurant and not tell that the table over there, you know, needs something that. That has dropped, that this and that. It's. It's something you learn by being in it.
[00:19:02] Speaker C: It's also a caring, right? It's like. It's like a wanting to do it right and trying to make sure the experience is perfect and really striving for that.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: It's that old saying, right? It cannot be taught, can only be learned, like, because it requires something of the student. Is that, like, it doesn't matter how much I teach you, right? Like, you know, okay, somebody's thirsty. I can tell you about water and how. And I can convince you that water will fix what you've got going on. I can show you where water is. I can take you there. I can help you lean down. I can pick up the water and bring it to your mouth.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: But at the end of the day.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: You have to swallow. I can't make you swallow it. And so can't be taught. It can only be learned, is a big piece.
[00:19:42] Speaker C: And both of those experiences, the teams were looking for those things. So first, the questionnaire, you know, to get at those things, those, like, other skills or thought or passion. And then at Elwe, just the be noticing what everyone was doing and paying attention, and then noticing when someone, you know, really fell in line with the work or the values that they were trying to achieve.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: 100%. I was given opportunities. So, like you, I took the side door in.
And at 24, I had three Michelin star openings on my resume. And not for any great skills that I presented except curiosity and sort of go get it, ness. And I was given opportunities and found myself in rooms that I otherwise had no right being in at the age of 24.
And, you know, when I look at all the sort of, like, what's on My resume. It's all just because I put myself out there and.
And sort of forced myself into conversations that I knew I wanted to be in or I knew I could.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: I could help.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: Move.
Talk to me. So you're in Spain. Did we speak Spanish at this point, or was that sort of on the way?
[00:20:53] Speaker C: So I spoke French because I had studied French and did my master's degree in Paris, but I did not speak any Spanish.
[00:21:00] Speaker B: Sure. Great.
[00:21:02] Speaker C: And the kitchen was run entirely in Spanish. So the mornings before work, I would do Rosetta Stone, like, just, like, listen on my computer. And. And I mean, it's amazing how the brain works when you are putting an input of learning but then being totally immersed by the language. I mean, it just came. So by the time I left that first stint at El Bull a few months later, I mean, I was understanding and speaking Spanish, which was amazing.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: That's incredible. Okay. So he says, you sort of see the door was opening for you, but they were like, but you need to learn how to cook.
So what'd you do? I mean, you said, okay, I'm gonna come back next season, but I need to figure out some knife skills before then, or what.
[00:21:50] Speaker C: I was fortunate that my parents were. I mean, basically, yes, that my parents were living in Manhattan at the time. They had moved the opposite from the suburbs into the city when I went to college. And so I went and slept on their sofa and interned at Jean Georges in the pastry kitchen for a few months. And then the Bazaar by Jose Andres was opening in Los Angeles, and I went over there to work on the line as a line cook, which was my first, like, paid job working in a kitchen. And that was also an incredible experience. And at the same time, while I was there working, I was reaching back out to Albuy about coming back in the kitchen the following year, which they accepted me to come back. And I do think I was that first year in the kitchen. It'll be one of the least experienced people, if not the least experienced person in the kitchen that year.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: Do you keep a waste log of all the stuff you screwed up?
[00:22:55] Speaker C: I learned fast, so I just, like, went in there. Plus, the best thing about places like the truth is, the best thing about places like that is that how they want something done is how they want it done. So they have to teach you how to do everything anyway.
Right. Like, it's not like I come in and they're like, make, you know, omelets or make mashed potatoes or pommes puree or whatever. The thing is, they're giving you a recipe that you weigh it out by the grams. I mean, you're learning. It was my culinary school. It was like in rapid fire that, you know, seven months that I was there, and they were long days and full weeks, and so that was where I learned how to cook. Really.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Okay, so somewhere along the line, Jos Andres Ferran Adria. I mean, an iconic restaurant that is now just lost to all but memory.
Somewhere along the way, you obviously fell in love with Spanish cuisine, Spanish culture, because you went on this path of basically opening this like epic Spanish restaurant. So talk to me about. Take me from there to then opening your own place and what happened along the way to get there?
[00:24:12] Speaker C: Well, I mean, a big part who I mentioned meeting Felix mana in Washington D.C. and following him back to Spain. So basically we ended up getting married and moving. Well, first we moved to Asheville, North Carolina to open a restaurant. So here I am, you know, it's myself and Felix and we are planning on opening a restaurant. And Spanish was the right decision. First of all, he's Spanish, but second of all, and he ran front of house in our restaurants. But also it was the only food that I had cooked professionally. I mean, by the time that we were going to open a restaurant, so it just made sense. And we moved to Asheville, North Carolina to do it because we were.
Was like, I was born in South Carolina, grew up in New Jersey, and kind of moving back towards the south where my grandparents were kind of made sense. And Asheville is this incredible community of creative spirits like musicians and food. And the people who live here really support local cuisine. There's also incredible farmers, small independent farmers here. So it was this perfect space. And I think moving to a smaller city, we were thinking the bigger cities felt incredibly intimidating from a cost perspective. I mean, just the barrier to entry.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: I'm so glad you brought that up because I want to spend more than a glancing moment on that because I feel really strongly about that having grown up in a suburb outside of a big city, to then living in a big city, you know, in for 20 years and, and, and watching how hard. How hard that is and so talk to me about that. So you went down there because, I mean, it's a. It's a really rich community like it. So that makes sense to me. And closer to sort of where you grew up and family, and that makes sense to me. And you decided to make a Spanish restaurant because Felix is Spanish and that's all you knew how to do. And I'm sure, joking aside I'm sure, you know, at the time you felt really confident and all that.
So it's not just because that's the only thing you knew.
That's right. But this small town, I mean, because obviously there are larger markets. There's Charleston, there's Columbia, there's Raleigh, there's Winston. I mean, there's like there are other larger cities that. Asheville was in the smaller side of that.
That, that did, that was a. That was a significant piece of the decision.
[00:26:44] Speaker C: So the business side of things, the reason that we picked Asheville was, I mean, at that time we were able. So we opened this with my parents. I was young, I was 26 when we were looking for this and you know, definitely didn't have the finances myself personally to be able to start and launch a restaurant and be the chef of a restaurant at that age. But my mother had run this catering business her whole life, had always dreamed of opening her own restaurant. My father was a pilot whose career was shifting. He needed another career.
And so we all moved to Asheville, North Carolina to open this restaurant. And my dad took his retirement money, which wasn't like a ton, but with it we were able to. To buy the building. And I think this is a big part of our success because the cost of the real estate in downtown Asheville was not that much at that time. And we were able to buy it, which then we were able to secure an SBA loan. We didn't have to go for investors because we had the equity of purchasing the building as the backup to be able to. Have to be able to do the loan to. To build out the restaurant. Because restaurants are incredibly expensive to build out. I mean, we took an. It was an art gallery before and you have to put all the H Vac, all the plumbing, like none of it would satisfy restaurant use. I mean, you're basically gutting all the interiors and redoing it.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: There are very few brand new restaurateurs that can afford to overhaul a first generation space.
Second generation is really the only thing you can do. So to your point, yeah, I mean, it was. You were able to do it in a smaller market.
[00:28:32] Speaker C: Yes, exactly. That was really our only option. And in hindsight, that has given us incredible security. You know, as far as being our own landlords and particularly through the pandemic, you know, I felt really grateful for, for that decision. I mean, it meant that things were tight in the beginning and there were really stressful moments, but because it was all on the line and I was thinking, oh my gosh if this doesn't work, my dad's going to be sleeping on my sofa and I'm going to be bartending down the street or something.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: You know, luckily, I think when you come up in this industry, it's, you know, you do a lot of hard things and so you're like, there's that stoic in stoic philosophy. They say, you know, is this the condition I so feared? It's like a mantra that you say that the stoics used to do this where once a year the emperor would put on rags, dirty themselves up, not shower for a month, and go out and live on the streets for a week, basically living as a beggar. And they were so scruffy and away from the town center that nobody knew who it was. It was the emperor.
And this idea that. And you asked yourself that mantra, is this the condition I so feared? Like, I'm so. I'm so tethered to my money or my possessions or my freedom or whatever. Like, so as bad as it's going to get, this is it.
And, you know, you live on the kindness of strangers for a week and you come back and you have perspective and you say, well, okay, I survived. It's not how I'd like to live, but that's okay. And I think in restaurants we're really good at being scrappy.
And I think that's right. I think it's easy to say, as bad as it gets. I just, I'm always gonna find. I'm always gonna find a way. At least that's how. That's how I felt as I was building my business. And over the last nine years, I was like, okay, if it goes belly up, I'll go back and work in a restaurant. I can wait tables. I'm really good at that.
[00:30:27] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:30:29] Speaker B: Talk to me about creating a Spanish restaurant for an American audience, specifically in America.
Talk to me about what transferred and what didn't transfer and how you had to bend it or tweak it for both American palates and the American. I mean, nobody eats dinner at 9:30 here in this country. So that was. That was, I guess, the first shift. But talk to me about how you.
[00:30:57] Speaker A: Approached it when you opened it.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: And then talk to me about the evolution now that the restaurant's been here for all these years.
[00:31:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we were trying to straddle two things. One was pretty traditional Spanish tapas dishes like patatas, bravas or croquetas, really well made. So it was like this is the thing. We're not going to be creative with it, but we're going to make it the best that we can.
And then we had another subset of dishes on the menu when we opened that were, how do we incorporate Asheville and the products that our farmers are growing, like trout or, you know, it's the freshest, most delicious thing that we can get close to us. And how do we serve it in a way that feels very Spain. And so, you know, we butterflied the trout and we grilled it and, you know, serve it with a kind of salsa verde. And it's delicious. And it's prepared in that kind of the way in Spain they prepare proteins, which is, I love it because it's basically letting the protein shine. And usually just like salt, pepper, maybe olive oil, maybe some white wine or lemon juice or parsley, but that's it. And it's been really, I think that was our approach to the food too, is like, let's find the products and let's prepare them really simply. And then we'll layer in these kind of more traditional, classic Spanish dishes. There were some that, you know, didn't land well.
You know, I remember our Enceladia Rusa, which is a potato salad with tuna, which is delicious. I just think Americans thought potato salad with tuna, huh? It's like tuna salad and potato salad in one. So they didn't order it a lot. Those who did loved it or it was maybe more polarizing or, you know, these cured sardines with raspberry. That was a flavor profile that I took for my days at El Bulli, that, you know, some people were going to like it and not everyone was because the flavor of the sardines and that's okay. I mean, I think the menu is interesting. If there are a few things that push people a little bit out of their comfort zone, you don't have to put them on everybody, but you kind of read your customer.
And then a lot of things that just taste really good when they land in front of you. They have a familiar feeling and flavor.
[00:33:35] Speaker B: It's a restaurant evolves. And I don't think, certainly, again, I spent most of my career in New York City opening Michelin starred restaurants and especially with the New York Times reviews, how they really make or break a restaurant in the first, let's call it 12 to 14 weeks.
It's gotta be right, right out of the gate. It has to know what it is right out of the gate. And I think I always felt this. It does a terrible disservice to our ability to evolve. And great service is a dialogue, right, because we are doing what we think we want, and then we're listening, and then we're going back and changing it and tweaking it. And it's constant evolution. We change the menus weekly, monthly, certainly every season. And so it is that back and forth as we get to know our people and our people get to know us, and we can have more meaningful conversations.
And I always think it's hard, but when a restaurant is around for years or decades, it gets to evolve. So talk to me about how it's evolved and how you think about the evolution of a concept.
[00:34:42] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, when we first opened Kuretei, it was one building. It was small and narrow, and we did not plan enough space, space for a prep kitchen. We were like, crammed back there, didn't have enough equipment on the line to be able to serve the people that we were doing every night. So our first step in evolution, we expanded. The building next to us became available, and we expanded into it. They were originally one building. So we had this just incredible opportunity of this way to expand next to us. And when we did, we were able to think about all the behind the scenes things that we needed, how we were going to do the volume that we were doing with the proper dish pits, two of them, you know, and the prep kitchen build out and the large enough walk in. We had a chance to rethink about all that, plus equipment that we wanted, like a charcoal grill on the line and putting in that hood system for that. So we evolved it and added, you know, we expanded our menu, added like vermouth and more charcuterie, and kind of brought this more complete Spanish restaurant vibe to the space. And it has made it. It's so much better than it was.
[00:35:54] Speaker B: When we first opened it, which is sort of the point I make. And now I want to tie these two things together and I'll let you sort of finish. But like, in the beginning, you're bringing a Spanish restaurant to an area that has no Spanish restaurants or no context or not a lot of context. And you're using local produce, like you said. I mean, the trout is such a big, you know, it's just not something that exists there. And so you have to sort of marry these.
Do you feel like.
Do you feel like you had to earn some elbow room at the table that, like, we had to do this, build trust. And then we got to do the restaurant that we really wanted to do.
[00:36:33] Speaker C: Like, got to complete the picture yes, that is exactly. And I feel so fortunate that we had that opportunity and we could have done it within our same space. But it was nice to have the additional space. But yes, now we can throw specials on of razor clamps and people order them.
[00:36:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:36:47] Speaker C: We don't have to sit on product that then goes bad and is a waste because we were trying to be too adventurous. People are willing. We built trust. That is the biggest thing. And I do think restaurants, when you deliver on service and hospitality and food in an experience, it's the best way to build trust. And from there you can really grow and evolve because you've got this, you've built this like following that is willing to come with you on your next adventures. I mean, it's been a big reason why we have now been expanding out of restaurants into other things.
A lot of the reason because we're thinking of how do we supplement the restaurant industry and how do we make it more holistic with other types and lines of business.
[00:37:36] Speaker B: Talk to me about that because I'm a incredibly interested in the rest of that sentence. So talk to me, talk to me about that.
[00:37:44] Speaker C: So we have over the years building off of the trust and also the customers that come in every day to Kurite, we have added, we, we have partners in Spain, we do trips. We are about to launch charcuterie. We were making it ourselves and now we're co manufacturing it so we can expand. And we're really excited about the quality of this upcoming Spanish style charcuterie so that we can get it into retail stores and wholesale markets, which is a whole new thing. And we are building out a E commerce home goods side of things to tie in the products and things that we love that we're bringing in from Spain anyway and make them more accessible to people. So we're really thinking of Kure Day as a brand that we have built. And now how do we reach people beyond those that can fit in the four walls of our restaurant?
[00:38:43] Speaker B: I love this. I started this podcast in April of 2019 and I spent a lot of time talking about evolution and I spent a lot of time in that year talking about revenue stream and diversified revenue streams and all of this on record. I mean it's creepy going on record.
[00:39:06] Speaker C: That's good timing to talk about this.
[00:39:08] Speaker B: I know. Well, I will say that when we start, you know, this is the little podcast that could and I'm sort of talking my truth or what I've learned or what I'm seeing and there is a handful of people listening Every week. And then the pandemic hits and the podcast numbers skyrocket. Because I think somewhere along there, people realized that I was talking about things that they couldn't contextualize, but now they realized mattered. I mean.
I mean, I was. I said it in, I think, like, I don't know, October of 2019.
[00:39:41] Speaker A: I said, if you make your money.
[00:39:43] Speaker B: One way, it's so dangerous, and it's creepy to go back and listen to that. But, like, you make your money one way, meaning people come in, they order food, they consume the food, and they pay you for what they consumed, and then they leave.
[00:39:55] Speaker A: If that's the only way you can.
[00:39:57] Speaker B: Make money, that's really dangerous. Could I have predicted a global pandemic? No, but I know enough to know you watch the world and that you have to diversify and you have to make money a lot of different ways. And I would say all the time, you have to think of yourself not as a restaurant owner, but as a business owner, that you have an asset. You have an asset. And it's funny, I come from the world of theater, and they talk about exploiting the entity.
So when you option Hamilton, you exploit that entity in as many ways as you can. So a Broadway production, a London production.
[00:40:29] Speaker A: Three national tours, a German production, you put it on TV, you sell merchandise.
[00:40:34] Speaker B: You sell music books, you sell CDs, you exploit that property, that entity as much as possible.
And the same is true in any successful industry, right? You take what you have and it's an asset. And you.
You utilize your people to make you more money, utilize your real estate, your recipes, your whatever, your relationships with purveyors and vendors overseas.
So I love this.
How long ago did you sort of get this idea? Or how. Talk to me about the genesis of it and then how you got to where you're at now.
[00:41:14] Speaker C: I mean, the trips we started in 2016, but because we saw it was more of opportunity, we just saw these people, like, would love to travel with us. So that was opportunity based. The pandemic really is where we saw, you know, we did not take your advice in 2019, but needed to live it, to then realize, oh, my gosh, to understand how vulnerable we were and also to understand how powerful we were. It's both things. Like, because you realize all of a sudden, I mean, people who weren't in Asheville when we closed, or even people who were in Asheville, they were dying with ways to interact with us, they missed us so much because they missed the connections and the moments and the joy and the memories that we create in their spaces and they remember that. So when we did very quickly throw together some, let's ship some stuff across the country and do it out of survival, I mean, people were excited about it, but it opened up our eyes of, gosh, if we can do what we do well, which is quality focused in the Spain sphere, we're always looking at the best quality of the products we're producing or sourcing. And it kind of fits a certain design esthetic. If we can do that and add on other types of businesses, not only is it better in the diversifying, but also the restaurant industry, profit margins are getting tougher and tougher. I mean, everybody is talking about goods are going up, labor cost, oh my gosh, is crazy now compared to what it was before. And there's only so much that you can raise prices. We have all raised prices. But also there's a point where you're like, can I keep raising prices? And there's a question. And also then there's a little bit of guilt. But I'm not offering, you know, paid maternity leave or paternity leave to my employees. And I would love to be able to do that. How do I make that happen? And so we've thought, you know, or are taking the gamble that if we build out other businesses with better gross profit margins that help us tell our story, that we can better take care of everybody. Yeah, we can. Also.
We're limitless then on how much we can grow those businesses. Our restaurant is limited by the four walls and the hours in a day that people are willing to dine.
And so it's a way for us to be able to continue to grow and take. Really, the purpose is to be able to better structure our restaurant industry business model.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: I think the restaurant industry has to evolve. Right.
I've said this quite a bit on this show. Those listening for a while will get sick of me saying it.
But the model we have was invented 250 years ago. I mean, restaurants have been around for thousands of years, but this model that we cling to so tightly has been around 250 years. And 250 years ago in Paris. If they had had some of the tools that we have now, whether it's technology or the ability to travel or whatever, they wouldn't have done it the way they did it. They did it the way they did it because that's all that they could do. Right. We had guests in the dining room, chef back, you know, chef and cooks back in the kitchen. And there was no way for the two entities to communicate. So we needed an intermediary, someone to go ask the table, what do you want? Write it down and go tell the chef what to cook and then to bring it back to them. We now all have, you know, phones.
We've got tools to very easily communicate with the kitchen.
As an, as an example, the ability to hop on a plane and go somewhere or put stuff on a plane to get to us is so much easier than it's ever been ever in the history of the world.
That if we're not taking advantage of that, if we're not leveraging our expertise and our people and our relationships, we're missing something really, really valuable, which seems to be what you've sort of tripped upon.
[00:45:11] Speaker C: Yes, I know, absolutely. And we're excited to see where this goes. And in order to be able to do it, I mean, we had to hire someone. We hired a CEO. She started Susan Apple. And she started, started in the fall with us. And we specifically sought out someone not with restaurant experience, but someone with home goods importing and CPG experience, because that's the missing link. Right. And so she sees the ability on how to make this idea that we have possible.
[00:45:41] Speaker B: I love it. It's funny. So I started my business nine years ago, 2015. Originally consulting for restaurant clients when I wanted to get out of operations.
My son was born in 2015. I started my business in 2015. That's not an accident. I did it to get greater flexibility and work life balance.
And as I built, as I built my company into the pandemic, and the pandemic comes, washes all of it away. I decided to go back to school. So I went back to business school, got my mba, and one of the big questions that I wanted answered, I sort of walked around saying, I don't think we do things normally. I don't think most businesses would settle for 8, 9, 10% profit like Max.
I just don't think that's normal.
And I, and I. One of the questions I wanted to get answered was what does normal look like? And how do other industries run things? Which I very much got the answer to that. And I went to St. Joe's University, which has an MBA in food marketing. It's the only one like it in the country. And I was surrounded by people in manufacturing and, and CPG and retail, meaning like specialty markets and supermarkets and food service, both restaurants and catering, and sort of like the military art, like all of this. Like there's such a big world around it. And I Looked around, I was like, oh yeah, we don't do things normally. Like, like, we, we don't. And there is, there's something to be learned there. I, I took that, I took those lessons really to heart and I made some really good contacts of people who just, they come from their reality and they bring their perspective to the table and it's like, wow, it's okay to make money. And there are other businesses that do make money.
[00:47:19] Speaker C: And I think the thing that I've learned is like, oftentimes because restaurants, we have such incredible brand potential and storytelling and followers that we get offered a lot of licensing deals or just like you partner with us and we'll give you a little percent or whatever the thing is, and then we can use your name and give you the thing. And what I am learning is that it's always better if you control it. So if you can hire for the person to build the business, it's the same thing of if you can do that, buying something versus leasing it. If you can hire, it always works out better in the long run. There's more to be had. There's a reason that people reach out to restaurants for these opportunities that don't turn a lot because someone else is getting that piece.
[00:48:14] Speaker B: So 100%.
The last restaurant that I worked at was Gotham in New York City. I was there for eight years and one of the things that I was there for was the launch of what we called Gotham Selections, which was a series of pantry goods that we would bring in that we sort of hand picked, hand bottled all of that, either white labeled things or just bought an entire crop of some, you know, an olive grove outside of Venice, and we'd make our own olive oil. I was also there at the time for the launch of Gotham Chocolates, which was our handmade bean to bar, you know, chocolate. And one thing that became really apparent was that the contact we have with our customers, our guests is huge. That most other businesses would die for. The kind of contact we have, our ability to, to say, hello, how are you? And that they can ask that we can talk back. I mean, the average, most transactions are minutes if not seconds in this digital world. And everybody slows down. They're with us for even in a fast, casual 10, 20 minutes. There's no transaction on the Internet that happens that takes 10 or 20 minutes and we get 20 minutes with them. Let alone in fine dining where you get an hour, two hours, three hours.
We've got such an opportunity to impact and influence the meal, but also make an Impression and the ability to talk about. One of the things we did with Gotham Chocolates is they. I said, we should be selling this at every table. So we have 320 covers on a busy Saturday night.
I think that's easily 100 sales of a series of not one bar. They're going to buy a packet, 10 bars or whatever it is.
And just by talking about it. Right. And we found a really elegant way. So it didn't sound like we were sort of like hawking goods. But it says, just so you know, we make bean to bar chocolate here. It's the only chocolate, you know, it's the only handcrafted bean to bar chocolate made in Manhattan. It's here. It's extraordinary. We source our bean well, you tell a story about it. And we sold them. And I said, you know, number one, we're selling all of our product wholesale. And here we have the opportunity to be both manufacturer and retail.
So we can make them for whatever it was. $1.70 to a bar and sell them for $11 a bar.
That's a pretty good margin.
And. And the people will thank us for it because they're getting to know more about us. They learn.
[00:50:39] Speaker A: They learn more about who we are.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: And what matters to us. It's our opportunity to sort of tell that story. So, yes.
[00:50:45] Speaker A: Did we drive more revenue?
[00:50:46] Speaker B: Absolutely. You know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in additional revenue those two years that we started doing it before the pandemic. But we also made deeper connections because they learned more about us. And ultimately that's helped strengthen the relationship.
[00:51:01] Speaker C: It also gives, I mean, restaurant. It gives you the opportunity to impact, like, how producers are producing things by choosing which products you're going to buy. And we are, you know, super strict on making sure that we are buying from small producers, that they are producing things with care, that they're quality because we want to sell the best, because that's what we want for our restaurants is the best. And they're often doing incredible things like taking care of their people, taking care of the earth and the environment. And so we get to create and build this world. Right. Because people are buying things all the time, but you get to funnel them into channels where they're buying sustainably and buying based on your values because they've connected with your values as a restaurant and you're trickling that down into other areas with your purchase power. I think the purchase power restaurants have because of our small profit margins is incredible.
[00:51:55] Speaker B: Yep, absolutely. In business school, we learn the three P's, right? People Plan at profit. And they are in perfect alignment if you choose to align yourself there.
Katie, I've loved this conversation. I could do this for another hour, but I want to be really respectful of your time. I ask the same five questions of everyone who comes on the show. Are you cool to answer my five questions? I'm ready to date. No one said no, so thank you.
First question. What's the last great meal you've had?
[00:52:22] Speaker C: Oh, gosh, actually, it was in Philly at Kalaya. It's incredible Thai cuisine, and it just, like, blew my mind. The flavors of the curries and the fish and the dumplings. It was amazing.
[00:52:36] Speaker B: I love it. I grew up outside of Philly and I went to undergrad in Philadelphia, and Philadelphia sucked as a food town back then, and I moved away, and then it became cool. So I'm thrilled. There's so many great restaurants in Philadelphia.
Second question. Talk to me about the last great hospitality touch you've had. So something where somebody went above and beyond, made you perk up and go, whoa. What's the last great hospitality touch you can remember?
[00:53:01] Speaker C: There is one that stands out to me that wasn't recent. It was a few years ago. I was cooking at BlackBerry Farms, and they are so generous when you do an event there that they let me stay for a couple of days afterwards, which is an incredible place to be taken care of. But. And of course, all of the hospitality there is just top notch. But the thing that blew my mind is I was sitting at dinner remarking to Felix how wonderful it would be to go back to our room and start a fire in the fireplace.
And the server heard us, didn't say anything. And by the time we got back to the room, there was a fire and a charcuterie board. And, like, it was. It was this, you know, just hearing a need. I think it's the hearing or noticing a need that you then put together, you can deliver on and delivering on it that just blows people's minds.
[00:54:03] Speaker B: I love it. My brother got married a couple years ago, and they stayed in the Ritz Carlton for their honeymoon. And he made some comment offhanded about how he, you know, they didn't have such and such wine. And the next day they had it waiting in his room when they got back from the pool.
And he was like, whoa, no, we heard you, you know, mention that we didn't have it. We couldn't get it right away, you know, because we had a. They were at, like, Grand Cayman or something, and they. And they had a, you know, we brought it in and, oh, it wasn't his honeymoon. He was just away. Like, he was away for the weekend. In any event, they brought it in the next day and they say, and we have more. If you want more, just let us know.
He stayed at Ritz Carlton. Since then, the notes transfer.
So at the front desk, every single time, they say, and, Mr. Close, we know you like such and such. We made it a point to get that in.
We don't have it in your room because we didn't know if you'd want it, but we're happy to bring it up.
[00:54:54] Speaker C: That's amazing.
[00:54:55] Speaker B: He's like, what? And all it takes is saying, this is important. And we're gonna create a system right in this, a CRM that's gonna, you know, that's gonna update Company Wide.
Because we can do that. You know, we don't have 30,000 units. We have a couple hundred. Like, we can do that. And if not us, then who? I love that. And of course, BlackBerry. You know, it stands to reason that they would do it. Okay, third question is my genie question.
[00:55:23] Speaker A: Vijini came down and could grant you.
[00:55:25] Speaker B: Just one wish as it relates to our industry. What are you wishing for?
[00:55:29] Speaker C: Oh, gosh, I'm wishing for policy change and offerings of childcare. I love that for people.
[00:55:39] Speaker B: Enough said. Enough said.
The first three years of my son's life, my wife and I, we tell that story quite a bit. When we were just passing him off, we didn't see each other, but we did what we had to do. I hear you. Fourth question. What would you. Would you tell someone who's about to open their first restaurant?
[00:55:56] Speaker C: I would say, think about what you do best and know that that is your space and try to find partners and people who can do the other things. Because I think I don't know about anybody else who's listening. When I started the restaurant, I had no idea when you're like, we're just going to open a restaurant, you forget about labor law and accounting and, like, all of the things that are going to layer onto it.
[00:56:24] Speaker B: Oh, all that.
[00:56:26] Speaker C: So it's like, figure out what your space is and find people who are good in the other ones because you need support.
[00:56:33] Speaker B: I love that. Okay, last question.
Tell me about the future of restaurants. Look five years down the line and tell me something you think is coming that others may not see coming.
[00:56:42] Speaker C: That's a good question. That one's a tough one.
I think the way that we.
I think the information.
I don't think information is a bad thing. So I think when the more information we can have that creates better hospitality, that we can better deliver to our customers. I mean, I do see us with just everything that's out there, knowing more about our customers before they come in. I want to use that information to be able to offer a better dining experience. I mean, it would be amazing for, like you said, just the world to be connected. And even if, you know, a customer hadn't dined in our restaurants, I knew that they love Pinot noir and from this particular place, because then I can offer them a Spanish mencilla that's different. But I know that they're gonna like that over other things. And so I do think there's a big shift that's gonna happen in technology and information that we have on people, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. I think there are ways to use it in a really good way that enhances the experience.
[00:57:54] Speaker B: I love that. I totally agree. In 2007, I started as maitre d at Craft restaurant in New York City for Tom Colicchio. And at the point, I would show up two hours early every single day and Google the entire guest list because we knew, I'll say, a third of the people, which meant two thirds of the people we didn't know. And if anyone was going to come to Kraft and spend, I guess, on average, $160 a head there, I'm going to guess that they're probably somebody notable. And even if they're not notable, we should know something about them. And the Internet is a wealth of knowledge. People thought I was crazy. And the things we learned there and then every restaurant, because then I went and did a series of openings after that, and it paid so many dividends. I opened Dovetail Restaurant for John Frazier on the Upper west side. And those nightly reservation books were a who's who of famous, prominent, important New Yorkers. And it was like, we wouldn't have had the opening we had and made the of splash we did unless we knew all those people. And I've got really cool stories about how we impacted. Just, like, not even big, important newspaper editors, but, like, you know, ballerinas who were on their night off at City Ballet and what we were able to do for them. So, yeah, I think it's okay to know more about our people. And again, it goes back to what I was saying before, like, the contact we have with our people. Most other industries would die for that kind of contact. So for not taking advantage of that, like, it's not about us. It's not about what we're doing. It's about these people. We're the backdrop. We're the backdrop to what they're doing. And I'm overwhelmed constantly that they picked us. Right. Like, I always say this, like, like, what do we do to celebrate birthdays? We go out to dinner. What do we do when we celebrate anniversaries? We go out to dinner. There's so much other cool stuff we could do, but culturally, we've chosen to go out to dinner. Like, that's amazing. And an entire industry is propped up on the fact that culturally, this is just what we do. And I think we could do a better job of honoring the people who choose us.
[00:59:58] Speaker C: I agree.
[00:59:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Katie, I appreciate your time. I am taking my family to Spain for the very first time this summer and I can't wait.
Taking my 9 year old to San Sebastian and we're gonna crush Old Town. And we got our reservation at Mulgurits and I cannot wait.
[01:00:15] Speaker C: And we are so amazing.
[01:00:17] Speaker B: He's so excited. He's like 20 courses. Bring it on. It was great.
So we are.
We are very. We are very excited. None more than him.
[01:00:25] Speaker A: Where can go people?
[01:00:26] Speaker B: Where can we send people to go learn more about you and everything you're building?
[01:00:31] Speaker C: Yes. Go to our website, kurete, tapas bar.com and also Chef Katie Button on Instagram and other areas.
[01:00:40] Speaker B: Perfect. We will include all of those links. Katie, all the best to you. Thank you for spending some time here with me. I really appreciate it.
[01:00:46] Speaker C: Thank you.
[01:00:48] Speaker B: Once again, I want to thank Katie Button for taking time out of her.
[01:00:51] Speaker A: Day to sit and chat with me. As always, all the links are in the show notes. Appreciate you taking time out of your busy day to be here with me, to level up, to learn a little bit more. Again, if you have a busy restaurant, we specifically work with independent owners and operators here in the United States who struggle with profitability. If you want to level up and increase the profitability of your restaurants, then set up a call to chat with me or someone from my team. In addition to this podcast, I work then with hundreds of restaurant owners all over to help them in a more specific, intentional way through the P3 mastermind. That's my group coaching program. Get started by visiting restaurantstrategypodcast.com schedule. Grab some time on the calendar and let's just get to know each other. There's absolutely no pressure to join if.
[01:01:33] Speaker B: You feel like it's not right.
[01:01:34] Speaker A: But let's get to know each other and let's see because maybe it's is right again. Restaurantstrategypodcast.com schedule and yes, you'll find that link in the show notes.
[01:02:03] Speaker B: Sam.
Sa.
